Rachael Nemeth 0:00
Hi, everyone. I'm Rachael Nemeth, CEO and co-founder of Opus Training. Today on Back to Basics, I'm sitting down with Chris Griebe, Chief Operating Officer of VASA Fitness. I first got to connect with Pris on a panel earlier this year, and it was one of those conversations where I immediately wanted to go deeper. What's interesting about this conversation is both fitness and restaurants are built on, frankly, a high turnover front-line workforce delivering a physical experience that has to feel consistent on every visit. What's interesting is that a gym member might show up five times a week, or frequency most restaurants outside of coffee shops can only dream of, and that means that the margin for inconsistency is even thinner. So the opportunity to build real loyalty through day-to-day execution is even greater. So there's a lot that I think both industries can learn from each other, and that's a big part of what this conversation is about. Chris spent his career across the full spectrum of health and fitness from large format clubs to medically integrated wellness to national amenity portfolios and joined VASA's COO stepping into 70 clubs and I think 3700 front-line employees mid-expansion. He'll get into that. He's an operator asking the same question. All leaders are asking every day, which is how do you deliver a consistent experience at scale when the people delivering it are changing? So Chris, welcome to Back to Basics.
Chris Griebe 1:27
Thank you so much, Rachael. Thanks for having me. Great meeting you earlier this year, and really excited to dig in here on what we're all trying to solve for, which is consistency and member experience and how do we operate that through our front-line team. So great to be here.
Rachael Nemeth 1:42
Awesome. Thanks. Well, introduce yourself a little bit and then tell us about VASA. And I'm actually specifically curious on what drew you to the role.
Chris Griebe 1:50
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So as one of those that have one of the rarities in the industry have only been in the industry. So I started my career with large, large format health clubs and then grew myself into not only kind of the country club and as you mentioned hospital-based fitness centers, amenity management, performance-based fitness centers and now back to commercial club operations with VASA. Really, Rachael, what led me back to VASA in kind of the core of health and fitness was VASA's mission, right, to have accessible fitness in communities that wouldn't have necessarily the opportunity to connect with individuals, to help them on their fitness journeys and on their wellness path. So combine that with an incredible space, you know, that we're in within the HVLP market and expanding beyond that with some of our studio concepts and other offerings that we have combined with, as you mentioned, you know, in the mid-60s when I first started, we've got, you know, 17 clubs that are opening this year in future expansion beyond that. So rapid pace, rapid growth, a highly competitive market, but again, really excited about bringing fitness to the masses within communities that have been underserved in the past.
Rachael Nemeth 3:07
Well, and maybe just for context for our listeners. So from what I understand, the fitness industry went through a pretty significant growth and consolidation phase post-pandemic HVLP or high volume low price operators like VASA expanded aggressively while the more kind of boutique studios contracted. So this like race to add locations created real pressure on the kind of service consistency. That seems to be what the trigger was. Is that right?
Chris Griebe 3:40
That's correct, right? And especially as we expand, you know, into new markets predominantly in the Midwest, one is capturing, you know, tens of thousands of members. But in addition to that, it's finding the quality staff that have the experience in the service level industries to be able to serve our members. So these are all challenging times, whether it was post-COVID or even before, with finding service providers as we all know in the fitness industry space, you know, group fitness instructors, personal trainers, coaches were hit hard during COVID. So we're coming back out of that and we've got great partnerships out there that are helping us support kind of our our bench of talent to be able to provide fitness professionals for our clubs and providing an opportunity, you know, as part of our development with our team is how do we grow internally? How do we take somebody from, you know, an MES? We call our front desk attendant and put them on a direction in the path through training and development to create general managers and beyond for the future.
Rachael Nemeth 4:36
Well, let's dig into that a little bit. Maybe let's just start with the baseline of like, what does good service actually look like in the health and fitness space?
Chris Griebe 4:45
Yeah. Yeah. And you touched on it, Rachael, right? Good service, you know, for us and in the health and fitness aid is pretty simple. It's really members want the basics done consistently well. There are hundreds of opportunities from the time you pull into the parking lot, free workout to the time you leave the parking lot to either either win or lose at each of those experiences through on the way. So, you know, most of our members aren't coming in for that luxury gym experience, although we have, we have concepts within our clubs that provide that, but they're, they want to improve their life. They're looking to lose weight and feel healthier and relieve stress, build confidence, build strength and what they expect from us in this environment where they can focus on that goal without any friction, whether it's team member, operational issues, those types of things. And so for, for us, it really means three things. It's equipment that works, staff that are welcoming and friendly in a, in a club that's clean and comfortable for the members to achieve their goals and take that one step further towards, towards their fitness journey. So if those things are all right, the member can focus on their workout instead of thinking about the gym. That's really at our, at our core. So when we run clubs, we're looking to remove that complexity. We want to ask ourselves through our standards, you know, does the gym work the way the member expects it every time? And it's that consistency that we need to nail to build that trust with our members.
Rachael Nemeth 6:11
Well, and, and a lot of what you're saying is also that when you came in, you were really trying to kind of simplify and you also landed on, we've talked about this before, this model of fixed friendly clean as boss and friend standard. Where did that come from? And why, why those three words over everything?
Chris Griebe 6:32
Sure, sure. I think it really came from listening to our members and me understanding and listening to the industry of, you know, that most every complaint that we'll get from a member falls into one of those three categories, right? Is, is something broken with someone unfriendly or did not respond to me the way I was expected to be responded to and recognition is, is key. And then lastly, obviously is something dirty, right? Table stakes for the health and fitness environment is, is cleanliness. So when you step back, those three things are really the most important to all of our members throughout their experience within our, our facilities and the fixed friendly clean was as simple as that, right? Does the equipment work and issues are getting resolved quickly? Does every member feel acknowledged and welcome as they're coming in and moving throughout our space from a friendliness standpoint and then does the environment feel safe and clean for them to help achieve those goals? So the standard is, is simple. The culture becomes clear and then that behavior is, is consistent.
Rachael Nemeth 7:33
Do you find that in your experience throughout the fitness industry that you've really, how do I want to ask this question? I'm trying to ask how, if you've like arrived on these decisions always based on members, but I actually think the broader question is what kind of decision maker are you and how do you make decisions actually?
Chris Griebe 7:54
Yeah, yeah, I think it's, it's through the lens of, you know, how do we, how do we improve two things? You know, one is what can we do to remove that friction as an organization to create a better environment for our team members and our members? And that's simple, but not easy, right? So I think for me, the, the, the challenge is in a world that is high data, high pace, high velocity, highly competitive, things are changing daily in the health and fitness space and been accelerated post COVID is how do I realize what, what dials on that volume knob need to be turned up and can be focused on and where can we turn down a little bit? And, and ultimately the goal is how do I distill all that information down to what does a team member that might be, you know, their, their first job in, you know, in any industry, what matters to them to be able to create a culture that supports them. Obviously the health and fitness environment is great. It's, it's pretty easy connection to be able to say we make a difference, right? I wake up every day at any level in our organization and we're making the difference in our members and team members lives because we're in health and fitness. People are getting healthier and stronger and being able to do different things on a day-to-day basis. So the impact is there. How do we tap into the impact? How do we minimize, you know, kind of all the operational noise that exists out there to really distill it down to what behaviors are we looking for from our team members that they can impact for the members every, every day and every experience that they have. So the challenge is, you know, this, this great, you know, idea of focus not frenzy in my environment. I've, I've led through that philosophy and brought that to Vasa is what do we need to focus on to improve those team members lives, which engage the members and will improve their life.
Rachael Nemeth 9:46
Well, and I would almost want to start to shift toward the kind of like service people aspect, but I actually want to pause and talk about this fixed friendly clean model clean because clean always just sounds so simple, right?
Chris Griebe 10:03
Correct.
Rachael Nemeth 10:03
Talking about, I think you said like your facilities are 60,000 square feet.
Chris Griebe 10:08
Yeah. Yeah. 60,000 square feet to two to 3000 visits a day. I just ran an interesting statistic for a leadership group we had in town this week and we get the same number of visitors at our clubs collectively each day that Magic Kingdom and Disney World, Animal Kingdom and Epcot get in a single day. It was wild. It was really wild to be able to articulate the amount of traffic that we're getting into clubs and it isn't, you know, it's not a transaction or I'm coming into a retail area and leaving. We obviously know it's, it's gritty. People are sweating and you know, there's, there's wipes and there's all sorts of great things that we have to contend with, you know, within locker room systems and fitness center. So being able to manage operationally the cleanliness of a 60,000 square foot building with that many visits a day. Absolutely requires kind of focus support systems operational, you know, where with all to be able to keep up with that literally 24 seven
Rachael Nemeth 11:15
within our clubs and so just to push a little harder on that then. What do you think are the most underrated things or thing that sort of quietly erodes the member experience without anyone really noticing until it's too late? The other things are so physical and visual. But what are the quiet things that, that just kind of dissolve over time?
Chris Griebe 11:39
Yeah, I think it's making the connections and understanding as a member engages with a fitness center, the reason why they, they joined might not be the reason why they show up six months or a year or five years from now, you know, the fitness journey like anybody's life is an evolution. And so looking at how do we engage with, with members and understand, you know, again, there's some great technologies that are helping us do this, understand where you might hit a plateau. We can track utilization. So all of a sudden, Rachael, you've been, you know, a strong user in the first three or four months of the club and something might, a life event might happen for you. But how do we know what triggers that we can inject ourselves into in your life to either get you back on track or create an alternate path for you to be able to reengage with us. So I mean, the, the small things are as, as, you know, simple again as it sounds people across generations right now are looking for community. So how do we create a sense of community? You're going to, you're going to work out more or you're going to show up more if you come in with a friend. If you're involved in one of our studio products where you're in with a group and there's an accountability piece, you have a connection with others and we can tap into that to help you improve your, your health and fitness through accountability. That might be one piece. It might be just as simple as saying hello when you walk in and smiling and telling you to have a great day when you leave. Right. I think some of the best interaction is that, that we see in our clubs are when you come in at 530 in the morning or eight o'clock at night after a long day, it's just making that personal connection and it's, and it's challenging right when you have as many members as we have, but it really comes down to our philosophy that every member matters. Rachael, what are you working on? How can I help you today in the club? Who can I connect you with? Whether it's another member or a team member. Do you know we have this new format coming something that's going to reengage you and help you feel like I'm, I'm seeing in a large club like that. So it was, you know, from, for me, it was something that obviously I learned in my days back in the country club world, like the difference between the country club and the, the, you know, the traditional health club is really all about recognition like country club members and those typing members are, I want, I want to know you. I want to know, you know, what your, your habits are and what your hobbies are and, and about your family and how I can help support you and being able to bring that into, you know, a larger environment and a more, you know, kind of scalable environment is critical for us.
Rachael Nemeth 14:09
Hmm. It's interesting that, you know, like the era of country club and how it's sort of translated into health and fitness today. That's really interesting. So one of the thing that you and I have talked about is that when you arrived, you inherited, you know, what you're calling paralysis by analysis, just too many reports, too many metrics, too much noise. Some people come in and it's the opposite. It kind of goes either one in the spectrum, you had too much and you really distilled it down into a handful of numbers. You've shared close rate, PT conversion, studio attachment, payroll and NPS, but that's still five things, right? But I'm so curious, like, why did you choose those metrics? What, how did you distill it down to those?
Chris Griebe 14:54
Yeah, it's a great question and really what the, what I brought into it and kind of my thought process around it was what can I distill down that are the controllables with, within the club? There's a lot of obviously outside of us and the lead funnel mix and how you engage with Vasa digitally, but really the behavior I wanted to get down to what focus for the, on the behavior side that we can impact in the club from a frontline team member to a general manager or district manager that make the most meaningful impact, not only on the member, but on the business, right? And one of those is closing percentage, which is it, you know, it's tracked everywhere and every club I've ever been in, but if somebody has an intent to come in and experience our clubs on a trial pass or just, you know, a walk in or a member referral, what experience can we provide for that individual? And ultimately starting there, like how can I match our solutions and our, you know, 60,000 square foot facilities with dozens and dozens of solutions in the clubs to help you achieve the goals? How can I distill that down to find out what your Y is, what the meaningful connection is and how your Y can connect with what we have in the club to get you to the results faster than you could do on your own? That was really it. And the, in the measurable outcome of that is how, how good are we doing at that? How good am I in building a relationship with you, connecting on what you're looking for, how you're going to engage with our facility and what tools can I, can I throw at you to be able to have your, you know, receive results faster? And the outcome of that is, you know, more conversions on folks that come into our clubs, prospects that come into our clubs to join as members. So that's, that's one example, you know, and you mentioned the other four that we look at, but, you know, before it was, and the other thing is kind of the obvious statement is, I don't want my general managers or, you know, my sales leads to spend all of their time combing through data to find out, to find out what the behavior that needs to be directed into the team. And so being able to do a lot of work distilling the data that we see on a daily basis that, that I know as a general manager, if I came in there, my team as a GM would come in there and say, I know based on the report from yesterday, I need to have a conversation with Steve. Steve, you know, ended up having four, four tours yesterday, but somehow didn't make that connection. Is it the quality of the lead? Is it how he engages on what we call the care and connect piece is how I engage with you when you, when you come into the building before I even start the tour, I want to get to know you, or is it, you know, sales efficacy? Is it overcoming objections? Is it overcoming price or spousal objections? Whatever it might be. So then we can really distill down, you know, the one number will show us what we need to do behaviorally to help that team member improve their skills to help again, engage more members and change more lives.
Rachael Nemeth 17:51
You know, I love that you're taking these metrics and you're basically saying, I don't need for you to be a person with the metric. I need for you to with how you respond to it. And, and I feel like specifically for club managers that has to be so important that, that they are feeling comfortable, you know, like they aren't hired as strategists. They're hired as people who can activate their team. They have a huge operation to manage. And so being able to walk in with the right information for them to say, I need to focus on this today because that Y and Z is is a really smart model. You know, you talked about training at the start of our conversation. You know, Vasa's been using opus, you know, and actually had used it before you entered the picture. How has training in general kind of differed from at Vasa versus other clubs that you've worked at? Like, what's the difference that you're seeing and how teams are executing training?
Chris Griebe 18:50
Yeah, I think it's, it's a couple of things. One, one is really the agility. The speed at which we can partner, you know, and our, our senior director of, of training and development. And her team can partner with, with you and your team on creating tracks and modules that are, that are getting, you know, and we have the proof, right? Where that are, that are being more absorbed by the team member. Been in the industry for over 30 years and we can tell stories of welcome to the club. You're a personal trainer. There's the members. Here's where you sign them up. Go get them. And that was really the training. Now we have, you know, such specific kind of bite-sized trainings that we can work through. Number one to initiate the onboarding, but really I think where the importance is, is we can pull those out. We can extract certain things. If we're identifying whether it's an individual or a club that's struggling in a certain area, we can just extract that one training out and be able to work with the leadership team, the training and development team and the onsite team to manage those one or two behaviors that are really going to impact the results. It's not overwhelming. It's not sitting in a room for five days straight, looking at PowerPoint presentations and then checking the box and saying you're certified. Go. So it's yes, there's the initial but the follow-up the accountability piece and then that ability to curate training modules that can really help those individual behaviors in a very short and brief time that are that are instantly doing a lot of things for us, right? We talked about this Rachael a few months ago was, you know, number one is it's proving, you know, the results in the club we're seeing improve results from a from a membership experience from our metrics that obviously that were that were measuring but I think more importantly to is it's improving team member retention. We're seeing some significant improvement. You know, like let's just talk about personal trainers because I had a great meeting with my SVP of fitness yesterday around this is, you know, one particular instance as a new personal trainer, there was, you know, over 60 documents that were part of the training but being able to distill that down and be able to be really concise around what is a day in the life of a personal trainer. What tools exist in the toolbox that we can show you, you know, in this younger culture that has shorter attention span. Again, it's not the hour long videos. It's it's shorter videos real life videos of happening in our clubs and what we're already seeing is an improvement in team member retention and the improvement in the revenue that the personal training department is bringing because of the really kind of specific training that we're able to provide now different than where I've been used to in the past.
Rachael Nemeth 21:27
Well, now that we're on the vein of training, I want to talk about you and your personal development because you've led your and your whole career was in the field. Yeah, I'm a regional SVP now CEO but what did that path having started in the field that a corporate track wouldn't have beyond just the obvious. Right. I know how to like run a studio but what did it prepare you for? There's so many people who are listening right now who are operators who aspire to X, Y and Z and also folks who have just gone straight to the C C-suite path. You know, looking back is that the path that you desired and and also, you know, yeah, how did it kind of help you and support you with what you're doing today?
Chris Griebe 22:16
Yeah, yeah, I think, you know, obviously I could even go back. I started as a personal trainer. Right. So a personal trainer back in the 1900s I like to say right. So starting starting back as a personal trainer and understanding it was kind of the to pass. There was like the personal connection to health and fitness and upgrading lives. And then there was obviously the business and professional path of what I wanted to accomplish and they were they're very parallel. It was, you know, starting as a personal trainer. I could impact that one person or the five people or 10 members that that I was working with to help them improve their lives. Then it was a natural progression to become a PT manager. Now you have, you know, kind of that scale ability of five to 10 trainers that you're managing. And so that that kind of scaled. So what I what I started quickly realizing is is my journey was how do I how do I impact the lives of more individuals through my sphere of influence as a personal trainer with 10 clients to now as COO with, you know, over 5000 employees and you know, over 800,000 members. So there's an opportunity in that kind of professional and personal path. But I think for me, it's again, always going to bring it back down to that one member matters for me and anybody in the fitness into like most most of us in the fitness industry are here because we have a passion for that both personally and professionally. So tapping into that, I think it it gives me that lens of I know what the personal trainer the brand new personal trainer on day one that's coming out of their certification and sees thousands of members on the floor and has been told okay, let's go build the business like what that feels like to be feel uncomfortable on the floor and you know, ask members if they need some some assistance on the floor to build that business. But for me, the biggest lesson was was really reality. So you know, in a club as you're an operator there's there's nowhere to hide you know what the locker rooms look like you know if the equipment is broken you can see the team but being in their shoes at at every level of an organization and health and fitness over the last 30 years you quickly learned that the strategies that I'm coming up with now and that our teams are coming up with now it really only matters if it works during prime time on a Tuesday when the club is full and you're and you're operating at at the at the scale that we're operating back and understanding the impact I think of through my lens of being there before what is this strategic decision how is that ripple effect down the organization what's that 360 view looking like there's the industry as we know moving fast moving quickly a ton of trends that are out there you want to jump on that but but would it make sense does it make sense for that team member at what time can we institute new processes because I've been there you know when corporate says do this and then all of a sudden there's 10 things that you're doing all in the same month we understand that that strategy is not gonna gonna stick so it's my lens now is the decisions that I'm making is it gonna make it easier for the team member and is it gonna have an instant result for
Rachael Nemeth 25:26
you have 5000 young individuals you know across multiple skill sets high turnover right and like that philosophy around people development has deep roots and in the work that you've done in the past and what you've lived and breathed but I love that I love that visual of the fact that none of it actually really matters until like the the busy Tuesday night when everything just has to hum so beautifully is there a moment when you got people development wrong as an emerging leader anything that you look back on and say man that that mistake or that moment really shaped me into I am I feel like we all have those
Chris Griebe 26:12
yeah yeah gosh I can think of a couple which just a couple I think there's just just a couple let me think about a couple of you know as as an emerging leader you know kind of in this industry it's really easy to to lose sight of the member right I keep going back that because it's it's obviously top of mind for me right like like at my level and senior leadership team and we talk about you know NMU's and LVT and all the numbers and the meat behind that but for a personal trainer they just want to share their passion for fitness with that one member and so I would say where I missteps in the beginning was okay here's the number you you know come heck or or high water you're going to hit that number and kind of coming at it versus that way and I think what I've learned over over the decades now is there are still some people that are very driven and very competitive and you can speak to that way the majority still want to understand the why and the impact and and if I can bring it back to we might have an initiative and it's going to be hard and it's going to take a lot of work for us to get aligned there's going to be trainings there's going to be follow-up and there's definitely accountability but this is the difference that it's making and the culture that we're creating is not shying away from a performance culture it is it is you know part part of the red thread you know through Vasa is we are a performance culture but the culture is about winning and what does winning mean to you and so winning might mean I'm going to have more money in my checkbook so I can support my family or grow my career or or you know buy fun toys winning might also mean I'm going to impact more lives if you know through my I you know kind of my experience of I'm a personal trainer a lead I'm a general manager with these like the influence that you can have or or maybe winning is if I can can follow this strategy and run these plays and and create a culture of of winning and support environment I can then move up and support more of those leaders that have that similar philosophy so I think again the lessons that I've learned is being able to just uniquely identify what motivates people at all levels and and tap into that tap into their why like we do with the members like like why are you here why are you your personal trainer why do you love teaching Zumba on the Saturday morning you know in front of 60 people what is it about that and be able just to find and highlight that strength and then there everybody has opportunities and how quickly we can identify those opportunities to progress them into better leaders and and we do an exceptional job at doing both tapping into strengths identifying those blind spots and being able to to produce talent you know within our organization or if they you know grow out of our organization where they're going to be more successful the day they started
Rachael Nemeth 29:04
you know it reminds me of my favorite interview question which is why do you get out of bed in the morning
Chris Griebe 29:11
yeah
Rachael Nemeth 29:12
it's so much richer than why do you want to work here and and I think that also also just in the the vein of people development I think that gets missed a lot too we're we're training people that we need to tell them why we're training them on these things and I it feels mundane but it's so important yeah um last question before we get into the lightning round when you look back at the leaders who shapes you and how you operate today who was that and what did they teach you that you still use
Chris Griebe 29:47
that use names I'd love to use names if
Rachael Nemeth 29:49
I can for it
Chris Griebe 29:50
I'd love to use names so Mr. Joe Goddow he was he was my general manager of the Pacific Club in New Port Beach he's he's retiring this month after decades of service there you know he's an old club corp guy and so you know very strong in the service industry in the country club environment in the two things that I I take from him in the really one which is number one is recognition people pay to be a member to be recognized that that is critical to build the personal connections number two is membership is king and that was you know an old club corp that he brought into me is like you know revenue cures all members members are king and his style I think he did a phenomenal job at teaching me at a very young age I think you know as a I think it was a fitness director at the the Pacific Club and I was I was younger than all of my staff and you know I'm dealing with with extraordinarily impressive and wealthy and intelligent members that we were supporting in that high club environment so he he really taught me how to engage with with members at all socioeconomic levels but and then in turn be able to to be able to coach our team to support those members so they had a wonderful experience that home away from home in a country club environment so Joe is an amazing mentor and still is to this day and he just taught me so much to like you know how to how to connect you know the the personal connection with with some member but also you know the results matter
Rachael Nemeth 31:27
you know I I feel like you talk to anyone who's in an executive position today they will all say that there's some GM who shaped who they are it's such an important role I have that person to and we all know it but then but it really comes into practice as you get older these are the you know the your brain is so mushy when you're young and and as it's you know the the veins are are hardening and all of that that those moments with your leaders and watching how they're leading correct with so few resources is really critical
Chris Griebe 32:05
my CEO Rich you know now always talks about you know go back in time there's always that one person where you feel like they took a chance on you yeah now it's now I I look for those like those are the moments that I live for when I go into the clubs like who's who's that next regional that next VP like who who can we who can we lean into and help develop to to believe in them to get to a level that they never thought they would be I love it yeah
Rachael Nemeth 32:34
well Chris it's been a total pleasure as back to basic tradition remains we are going to end the lightning round I'm going to ask questions answer them as quickly and as briefly as you can to leave our listeners in total mystery about who you are so at to start a what fitness trend are you completely over
Chris Griebe 33:04
my gosh that's so hard Rachael that I'm completely over indoor cycle I'll just say it let's let's do it
Rachael Nemeth 33:18
then the next is the opposite what fitness trend are you most excited about that you think is underrated today
Chris Griebe 33:24
strength strength strengths and strengths powerlifting strength super excited that is back better than ever
Rachael Nemeth 33:33
if you weren't in the fitness industry what industry would you be in
Chris Griebe 33:38
landscape architecture
Rachael Nemeth 33:39
wow I did not see things I know you
Chris Griebe 33:42
didn't I know you didn't I love it I love the outdoors I love fixing things pre post the evolution of that yep I'll be it
Rachael Nemeth 33:51
what's the last book that you read
Chris Griebe 33:56
I I have a tendency I juggle 10 books at a time so that's that's kind of my my thing so everything from fly fishing to business to just brain brain stuff I just finished dark matter so that was really cool so I just finished yeah
Rachael Nemeth 34:09
what are you going back to basics on personally
Chris Griebe 34:14
routine like to basics right the role is intense time is everything and if I don't take care of myself and practice what I preach it's all going to unravel so back to basics with with my own health and finished journey
Rachael Nemeth 34:30
hmm and last question if you could give your 25 year old self one piece of advice what would it be
Chris Griebe 34:37
read more books the information is is out there information and apply information like I'll read a book we talked about this and trying to take everything from it if you can just take one or two things from one thing had I done that back 25 again similar analogy to fitness just take that first step but just read more books
Rachael Nemeth 35:02
Chris total pleasure talking with you always thank you so so much for joining us appreciate it
Chris Griebe 35:08
thank you so much Rachael as always talk to soon
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