Rachael Nemeth 0:00
Hi, everyone. I'm Rachael Nemeth, CEO and co-founder of Opus Training. Very excited to introduce today's guest, someone I've been lucky enough to get to know over the past few years, Julian Barnes. Julian is the co-founder and CEO of BFS Network, which is a growth accelerator and intelligence platform for boutique fitness, wellness, and self-care businesses. So he's been advising these studio owners and operators for over 20 years. And what makes his perspective unique is that he's not inside one business looking out. He's actually across thousands of businesses simultaneously through peer networks, coaching, the annual BFS State of the Industry report. It's really kind of the only independently produced data report for the boutique fitness industry. So he has this wide perspective and something that Julian and I really agree on is that there are really obvious parallels between what happened in the restaurant industry over the past few decades and what's happening in fitness right now. So we're going to talk about that today. He has spent so much time watching what separates studios that figure out that fitness is a lifestyle. It is not just a special occasion. So Julian, we're very excited to have you and welcome to Back to Basics.
Julian Barnes 1:16
Thank you, Rachael. I'm happy to be here. Happy to have this conversation. We're going to have a lot of fun. We get to bring the private conversations you and I have to the public.
Rachael Nemeth 1:25
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, well, maybe let's start. Let's give everyone just a baseline here. So tell me about yourself. Tell everyone about BFS Network.
Julian Barnes 1:34
So you summarized me pretty accurately there. I'm based in New York City, like you, maybe up through Yorker. I am, I work with beauty fitness and self-care brands, the founders of the brick and mortar versions of these brands. We're not working with products, companies, marching like nude sunscreens. We're working with service providers. Think the whole range of personal care services that you probably use. So your fitness provider, your, your hair, your nails, your waxing facials, anything, anyone touching your body or advising you how to make your body look better, feel better in a brick and mortar space. That's who we work with. We've been doing this off close to a decade. My business partner is NTE Tuck. As you said, we have a global, a global view of what the keys, what the path to profitability is for these companies. So looking forward to having this conversation with you today.
Rachael Nemeth 2:36
Well, and so you and I have talked about the similarities in friends across hospitality and health and fitness. The reality is, is that like dining out used to be a special occasion. And now it's just part of daily life. Fitness feels like it's having kind of the same moment. It's moving from something for health buffs to something that's kind of woven into everyday life. What do you think is actually driving that shift right now?
Julian Barnes 3:03
Pandemic, hands down. It's the number one differentiator in the last 15, 20 years. I mean, let's start with the modern fitness industry. We started in 1950. So it's only 75 years old. So we have to remember that most people aren't aware of that. So it's a very young industry. But the pandemic focused people's attention inward on their health. We all learned terms that we most of us had never heard of before, like core mobilities. And we learned that the people who were at greatest risk for death from COVID were people who were suffering from a prior core mobility. That, along with the fact that a lot of people were home for a period of months, gave people the chance to realize, oh, maybe I should be doing something about my health. And that, that triggered several things that triggered the shift to focusing in health span versus lifespan. Health span is how you feel today. Lifespan is how long you live. People recognize that lifespan in a wheelchair or being firm isn't really life. You're alive, but you're not living. Health span is how you feel today. So COVID, the pandemic, and then I don't think this is coordinated, but certainly there's been a rise of let's call them the super influencers in the podcast space, but the podcasting especially. So the names that many of your listeners have heard of from Huberman and Hyman, all doctors, Dr. Huberman and Dr. Hyman, Dr. Stacy Sims, Dr. Gabrielle Lyons, Dr. Bill Campbell, Dr. Rhonda Fitzpatrick, and like hundreds of others have taken to the waves, the airwaves, the podcast waves in the last five years and they've done a really great job in educating the consumer. Certainly I'm not saying that everything that they all say is 100% accurate, but generally they've done the hard work of educating people on various aspects of health. And so now the average person is set up asking their doctor, you know, what is HRV, they're walking into their doctor and they're saying my HRV is low, right? That's a big difference. We only get a few minutes with our doctor. Let's use the 15 minutes to ask more specific questions because I've learned from the podcasters and then YouTube and now AI, there's just much greater access to information about how to live a healthier life and all that is really in the last five years.
Rachael Nemeth 5:57
Well, so where do you think that we're at in this transition then?
Julian Barnes 6:01
We're still early because I'll give you an example. It's so easy to live in a bubble, right? And so I admit it. I live in a bubble of people who are health cautious. A couple of weeks ago I went to an alumni event at a bar in New York City to read all the industry trades. No one's drinking anymore. None of the Gen Zers are drinking anymore. Like they're all the social wellness clubs. If you're to believe the industry trades, but I walked into this regular bar, like a typical Irish dive bar six o'clock on a Thursday. And it was like, you know, 25 years ago, nothing had changed. Young men, young women standing, drinking beer, talking after work. Right. So it's really easy to think that no one under 30 drinks anymore because there's a really small sliver of people who are now going to bat house and other ship. But that one bar that one night couple weeks ago was a reminder. Yeah, we can't drink our own Kool-Aid. So we're still very much in the first or second inning because only 20 to 25 percent of Americans have a gym membership. And even though some have a gym membership aren't aren't using it as consistently as as we all should. Right. So there's a big gap between I like to think of it as general population and fitness enthusiasts. The fitness enthusiasts have a huge fervor around tracking and whoops and wearable lifespan and optimization. But the fitness enthusiasts out of that 25 percent with gym memberships. I don't know what the number is, but it's a tiny percent. So that 75 percent of Americans without a gym membership. And then let's just estimate 80 percent of the 25 percent who just have a gym membership and they're not really hardcore fitness enthusiasts. So we have a long way to go, which is why this industry is growing and has so much long-term growth potential because to use the venture capital or the PE term, the TAM is still massive. Yeah. But growing. Massive growing.
Rachael Nemeth 8:23
Well, so let's kind of zoom in a little bit. You have advised thousands of studios at the same time. And so you're seeing all of these patterns. Like what do you see that these operators maybe can't see about themselves? What patterns are you seeing today?
Julian Barnes 8:40
They all think they're special. They all think their business is different. But we're different. Sound familiar? You're laughing because you know, we're different. You know, we're a fusion Asian Cuban Latino restaurant. We're not like a steakhouse. Do you serve food? Do your clients come here to eat? Do you have to hire from the same pool of people? You subject to the same laws, the same overtime laws. You know, everyone thinks that they're special. And I don't mean that they're not, but they're not distinct. Their business challenges are distinct. And that's what's one of the benefits. That's one of the benefits of our state of the industry report when they can see, oh, OK, my challenges are similar to others, right? Two things that we do that give me the confidence in saying most of these businesses have the same challenges. One are the pure network roundtables that we've been leading for six years. So we've been hearing these conversations among the studio owners. And through the power of AI, we were able to create a summary of all of the conversations I had last year with any studio owner, either one-on-one or in a group context. And it's the same five recurring issues. And most of those five can be summarized as people and ops, people opt for the strategy, right? It's the same issue. Now, the issues may change based on the stage of business you're in. But we work with businesses that are multi-location, multi-million in revenue. And they're focused on growing and scaling. So their issues are all the same. Do I have the right people? Are they in the right seats? Do I have the right people to support my expansion strategy? What is my expansion strategy? How am I going to fund my expansion strategy? Those issues are the same. Whether you're Applities in New York City, Strength in Iowa, Indoor Cycling in Charleston. If you're in a growth mode, your issues are people and systems. Do I have the right people and the right systems to support the growth of my business? And we can see that because we have these cohorts and we have the data from our state of the industry. But understandably, if you need deep running a business every day and you just focus on your team and your clients, you don't have access to a broader perspective to realize that someone else has the same challenge you have. And that's why when they join our peer network, they realize, oh, here are nine other people who have similar, if not the same issues. And that provides some level of support. At a minimum, it's misery loves company and I'm not alone. That's the minimum for them to realize they're not alone.
Rachael Nemeth 11:23
Well, that's why I think the State of the Industry report is so interesting. I want to talk about that a little bit. So this is a report that, you know, your tracking leads, visits, conversion, share, and all of these things, lifetime value. But there's really no data on how studios are training and developing their people. Why is that the one thing that's not being measured today?
Julian Barnes 11:48
I mentioned earlier, my business partner is NTE Tuck and he has a separate company called FitGrid. And he would say that that's exactly what FitGrid is tracking, the instructor quality. And so I know at the end of the day, you're going to end of today, you're going to ask me who else should you talk to. Here we go. Talk to NTE about how FitGrid helps fitness studios measure and track the performance of their instructors at a very high level. I'm going to butcher this. Every time you take a class at a studio that uses FitGrid software, you will receive an email from the instructor asking you, well, two emails. One, thanks for coming to class today. Great to see you. I'll see you next time. You get another email from the studio saying, how was the class? How was Rachael's class? So it's like an NPS score for individual instructors. So he is doing that. But I think your broader question is not being done at scale yet. And that's what FitGrid is doing. Within the state of the industry report, we ask questions about team. We ask compensation. We ask size of team. We ask the role. Keep it starting with the owner. We ask how many hours a week does the owner teach. There's a really strong, well, depending on the market in big cities and with more locations, there's an inverse relationship. The fewer hours that the owner teaches, the greater, the higher the profit. So it's certainly top line revenue. When you are not teaching a lot, there is a greater probability of you or she be higher top on revenue. That means if you're not teaching, you're actually running and growing the business. If you're in the classroom or if you're the chef and you're making every decision, then you're not focusing on running and growing the business. So we have that kind of information in the report. One of the key takeaways from my report last year was the fact that a fitness studio that invests in a dedicated manager, and I'm using that word very intentionally, dedicated doesn't have to mean full time, but it means his or her primary responsibility is sales and marketing operations. When a fitness studio invested in a dedicated manager, their top line revenue was higher and their profit margin was higher. And notice I use the word invest. When they invest it, that person, right? So that was, it was unexpected because I wasn't looking for it, but it makes a whole lot of sense, right? So...
Rachael Nemeth 14:39
Well, so then I'm curious like whether the dedicated manager effect is really like a people insight or if it's more of a stage of business signal, like do the best operators win because they hired that role or were they already at the point where they could support it? You know what I mean?
Julian Barnes 14:57
Well, it's a mindset, right? It's mindset and confidence and willingness to invest in the future even when you can't afford it, right? So it's easy to say I can't afford to hire a manager. It's so you don't. And you're probably right. You probably can't afford it. But guess what? If you don't hire a manager, the odds of you drawing your business to the point where you can afford to hire a manager, those odds are pretty slim. And that's why we go back to mindset. If you recognize, okay, I need to invest in a manager because this person is going to run the business. They're going to find new leads. They're going to roll those leads. They're going to manage operations and deliver the high level experience, that results in retention. I'm going to invest in that person and I know I can't afford it now, but in three to six months, that person is going to pay for themselves and then I can focus on strategy and growth and high level BV is that, right? So it's a mindset. I understand when the operator says I can't afford it and yet you're kind of in a note, in a lose-lose situation because if you don't find a way, depending on the size of your business, but if you don't find a way to invest in a manager, you're going to be trapped in a vicious cycle where you are teaching 20, 30 hours a week and you can have a nice living that way. If the lifestyle of business is hard, teaching 20, 30 hours a week and here's the other key takeaway from that finding. You can have a nice profit if you are the primary instructor or coach in your business, but pretty consistently across the board, there's a ceiling in your top-line revenue because when you're the coach, coach, trainer, instructor, then you're trading your time for dollars and you're putting a value of $20 a class to 200 for private session and there's a finite number of hours. You can't teach every hour, 168 hours a week. So yes, you can have a lifestyle business, you can have control and you can enjoy what you do and there will most likely be a ceiling to your maximum revenue and that may be fine with you,
Rachael Nemeth 17:36
but you should understand that. This brings me back to the original question. If people and ops are the main bottlenecks to growth then, where do you see, where do you actually see?
Julian Barnes 17:49
Yeah, in systems.
Rachael Nemeth 17:51
Where do you see learning and development having the biggest payoff? Is it manager training? Is it instructor coaching? Is it sales training?
Julian Barnes 18:02
All the above. Plus, I would say the two most important things you didn't even mention in there, which are the recruiting and the onboarding. That sets the tone. The recruiting, the job description. I can't tell you how many job descriptions I've read that are generic. Job descriptions are like a resume. You've heard the adage, put your name in a resume and read the resume. If it sounds like it could be anyone in the world and it's not really specific, my resume should look like I'm the only one in the world who could have written that resume.
Rachael Nemeth 18:40
Speaking of, so you have a law degree. You also have a background in competitive tennis and you spent your career really building communities rather than companies, which is sort of like the opposite of what you would expect. So, I mean, how does all of that, how does your background show up and how you...
Julian Barnes 19:02
You make it sound sexy as if I claim this. I didn't claim any of it.
Rachael Nemeth 19:06
Well, we never do. But it's still showing up today and who you are and how you lead, but in what ways? Like, what are you sort of carrying forward with the sales thing?
Julian Barnes 19:16
Look, it all starts with what's your personal mission? What are you trying to do on earth? And my purpose is to help people... Help people live healthier lives more specifically. Help them live a... Live a life that is pain-free and pill-free for as long as possible. And so, that's my purpose. And then I had to figure out, well, what's the best way for me to achieve my purpose? And I've chosen not to be in the front lines. There are people who are much better equipped at being in the front lines than I am. When I say front lines, working with the end consumer, that's not how I've chosen to achieve my goal. Rather, I realize that there are tens of thousands, probably if not hundreds of thousands, of people who are much better than I am working with the consumer. And we want those people to deliver impact after a business to their clients, and they can't deliver impact if they can't stay in business. So, the path I've chosen for myself to achieve my life mission is to support those people who are on the front line so that they can stay in business long enough to work with their clients and deliver impact. In other words, the business owners need to build sustainable businesses. Keyword, sustainable businesses. So, that's how I've taken my lifelong interest in business, my lifelong interest in movement and fitness and education and entrepreneurship, and they all come together in what we're currently doing at BFS, supporting business owners, giving them access to information, resources, training so that they can build profitable, sustainable businesses so they can stay in business and deliver their programming and their services to their clients. I'll give you an example. In New York City, Chelsea Pierce Fitness, their fictional location will celebrate 31 years this hour. They have members who've been there for 31 years, right? Which means you can't have a 31-year member unless you're in business for 31 years, right? My parents belong to a gym in Westchester County and they celebrated 40 years this spring as members of that gym. So, to bring it back to your world for a second, one of the questions I ask my members all the time, do you want to be the hot shishi restaurant or do you want to be the neighborhood diner on the corner? In your period, which restaurant do you think made more money over a 10-year period? Now, within a two- or three-year period, that hot restaurant definitely outperformed the neighborhood restaurant selling eggs and burgers. But if you're hot today, you're not hot in three years. But that neighborhood restaurant diner is still selling eggs and burgers and salads every day for 10 years. So, I'm not saying there isn't a role for the hot shishi restaurant, right? But from a business standpoint, I think the objective for small business owners is sustainability. Sustainability means doing those things that are most likely going to result in a high lifetime value, right? Which means you have to deliver impact for them to stay for a long period of time.
Rachael Nemeth 22:57
So, all right. I keep coming back to, like, learning and development systems on this because in studios, are we really talking about skill-building or are we talking about creating consistency at scale? Like, how do you think about the trade-off between...
Julian Barnes 23:12
It's consistency, right? The one difference between a fitness studio and a restaurant is a restaurant, I mean, from my perspective, I've never worked in a restaurant, so you can prep me. I know there's a chef in all the sushi chefs, but there was a chef and there's a menu and it doesn't change day to day. A fitness studio has multiple instructors and people fall in love with the instructor, so your experience can vary by the instructor. Now, if you're the studio owner, your challenge is that your difference instructors need to deliver not the same experience, but a similar high-quality experience, right? It would be like if you had a rotating loop of chefs, if Monday was Mexican and Tuesday was Thai and Wednesday was Filipino and Thursday was something, so every day I come in, I'm coming in Monday because I know I want whatever the Monday menu, that's what fitness is. I choose late day, back day, you know, arm day, ab day, whatever, but it's systems that ensure the consistency of the entire experience and the experience isn't limited to when I'm actually in the class. The experience includes my check-in, my, well, before check-in, my booking. Do I have a simple process to book my class? My check-in process, the electronic communications from the business, telling me what to bring. Do they have water? Do I need to bring water? Do they have towels? Do I need to bring my own towels? That communications. And then there's the class. There's the class amazing. Do I like the instructor? Do I like all my name? Do I like the music? Do I like the people in there? After class, does everyone high-five each other? Or does everyone put on their headphones and walk out and go their own separate ways? And then after class, back to the community, well, is there a fun desk? Are they telling me, you know, great to see you. You can book your next class now. Am I getting a communication electronically after class? All of that defines the experience, right? And you have to deliver that consistently. And that is hard to do. But if we're dealing with people, right, we're dealing with humans. We're not dealing with robots. Even in this AI world, we're still dealing with people. People have bad days. And that's the challenge of getting everyone to, and I guess every team is like an orchestra or a chorus, trying to get them to sing, you know, in harmony every single day. And people have good days and bad days. That is a challenge to me, systems.
Rachael Nemeth 26:02
You know, I'm sort of like mulling over what you said because you're talking about how, you know, consistency has to cover the full customer journey, booking, check-in, communication, you know, the class itself, the instructor. And it makes me think that, like, the hard part is not setting the standard. It's building the system that helps people hit the standard even on an off day. And I keep coming back to the idea that consistency is really a management problem, as Jorge has been training problem, because someone has to notice drift before the member does, you know.
Julian Barnes 26:40
A thousand percent. And that's also why I said to me, it starts with recruiting a non-lord. Because the recruiting is where you have the opportunity, the first opportunity to assess whether this person has the willingness, desire, and aptitude to run the play, right? You can't train someone to do something that they don't have the aptitude at. You could hire me and then you'd be frustrated with me and I'll help. I will have wasted your time. So I just think the recruiting process is underappreciated in this process because the systems you're talking about, the training, you're training an actual human who has to have the ability to run the play.
Rachael Nemeth 27:25
Is that where most studios you think actually break first in the kind of recruiting space, or is it later made?
Julian Barnes 27:33
Well, we're talking, we have to separate instructor from front desk, right? Instructor is a very unique skill, right? And so there are a bunch of other challenges that impact instructors. But for the front desk or your management team, I don't think there's enough appreciation of how important they're recruiting. People just think hiring, but I'm very specifically saying recruiting, hiring, onboarding. Like those three things happen before they start working with you.
Rachael Nemeth 28:08
Right?
Julian Barnes 28:09
What is your onboarding process? And now they've onboarded, now they're on your team and you're going to start to hold them accountable. So yes, management needs to identify when drift starts to happen. But before it can be drift, how about we assess whether the new hire has fully mastered, has completed the training properly and understands our SOPs, right? You have to do that. So that's the onboarding process. Okay, now they've been with me for two or three months, maybe even six months. Then the question is, first of all, the world is shifting so rapidly, what's my ongoing training process? Right? Am I doing role play? Am I doing live action role play, which is to me very different. I just saw something this morning about a new company that's doing performance coaching for senior teams, treating them like athletes. Not like just, it's just a recognition that a lot of us, a lot of companies expect their team to do their job without constantly treating them on doing their job. I'm not saying that well. Let me say it this way. I'm fairly certain that Taylor Swift, Beyonce, Ed Sheeran still practice their foals. Still run up and down all the scaling that John Legend still practices piano. I think there's a lack of understanding among shift workers that they have to continue practicing, developing their skill, and that's where there's a combination of is the employer, does the employer have a system for that type of ongoing training and then what platform, what tools, what resources is the employer using, but it starts with the employer recognizing that we need to have an ongoing training system for our team just like elite athletes. Sure. Elite athletes and high performers.
Rachael Nemeth 30:27
And that, I love what you're talking about with sort of like the live action piece as well, because you know that feels useful because of test behavior and it's not just knowledge, right? We talk about that a lot at Opus and a team member can understand the standard operating procedure on paper, but they can still freeze in a real moment with, you know, a late member, a bad class experience, a tough sales conversation, what have you. And I think the value is that it shows whether someone can stay calm, use good judgment, and deliver the brand standard when the situation messy, not when it's ideal. That's why that sort of practice is important because the world is changing around us and we have people have to react to that.
Julian Barnes 31:11
Yeah.
Rachael Nemeth 31:12
Yeah.
Julian Barnes 31:13
LARC, L-A-R-P, live action role play.
Rachael Nemeth 31:17
Yeah.
Julian Barnes 31:18
Look, there's no substitute.
Rachael Nemeth 31:21
Yeah. So last question before we get into our lightning round, Julian, BFS has been part of the Opus ecosystem since 2021. What are you seeing across your member network? So you talked about you and your view, but I do want to hear, like what are you seeing across the industry in terms of how seriously studios are taking the training conversation, front desk staff, everybody, how of the moment is training when it comes to?
Julian Barnes 31:58
Not as much as it should be. There's a disconnect still between I have a problem and I know what the solution to the problem is. I mentioned earlier when we summarized the recurring themes from all my conversations last year. And by the way, all my conversations this year are consistent with those themes. So basically for the last 12 months, the themes have been founder dependency, some aspects of people ops, the whole hiring, jury and systems. Those are the three topics that are occurring. So they recognize that there's a people ops issued. They don't always know the source of that issue. And so training isn't top of mind to them as a solution to their issue. It needs to be presented to them. Right. I'll give you an example. We remember who whose COO whose COO and general manager two separate people quit abruptly a couple of months ago. And and actually we we talked about, you know how to address her immediate emergency. But after we did that I pulled back and said, okay, so what did we learn from this experience? Right. If someone quits abruptly and it's not for like a personal health emergency, that's a serious red flag you don't have a relationship with your COO where she would A tell you in advance if something's wrong B give you a couple of weeks notice that I'm leaving just to say today's my last day. That's a problem. Okay. And so this member recognized the problem, but then we had to work backwards to talk about to unpack what the source of that problem was done differently. And then you get to the role of training as part of the solutions of things you could have done differently. So I think there's still a lack of awareness at scale of the fundamental role of training, even though they will they'll say people off is an issue they haven't yet connected the dots between people off and training. And just to give you an example before we wrap up, we asked two questions in our state of the industry. We asked what their number one objective is and we asked what the top three challenges are. The top three challenges for the last three years have all been people late. So what do you think the number one objective should be? It's never people is so I've I've asked them about that call them out. How can you tell me that people are your number one challenge but when I ask your number one objective you never say to build a high performing tea. But there's a disconnect between the thing that's causing them pain and what they think they need to do to build a sustainable business because they haven't they haven't fully embraced Richard Branson's quote which is you take care of your team take care of your business. The people who select challenge people as a challenge but grow my business as objective those people are failing to understand that the people will grow their business. They are putting them in separate buckets. And that's why they're spending the rates.
Rachael Nemeth 35:49
Well and I keep wondering if the real gap then is that studios don't it's not that they don't value training but that they don't have a simple way to connect training to revenue retention or just fewer people issues. You know.
Julian Barnes 36:05
I think that's an excellent point. Because they're thinking in terms of revenue. AUV top-line revenue net income. They're not realizing that the way to get to those three is with people. The way to get the right people is everything that you and I have talked about the entire hiring journey. So it's not rocket science. You're distracted.
Rachael Nemeth 36:24
Well and you said it yourself like we're in early innings in the industry. So it will come and you know BFS is helping shapes.conversations. So well Julian this has been great as always. I'm going to end with our lightning round. I'm going to ask you some questions. Try to answer as quickly as you can. One to two words. Yes. No need for justification. I believe everyone in pure mystery. Yeah. First question. What was your first job?
Julian Barnes 36:57
Caddy. Of course.
Rachael Nemeth 37:01
What is a fitness industry trend that you're completely over?
Julian Barnes 37:05
I'm over ten dollar memberships. Doesn't work. It's a whole other
Rachael Nemeth 37:13
opposite question. What's a fitness industry trend that you're really excited about?
Julian Barnes 37:17
Human optimization. Integration of fitness, wellness, technology, health care, beauty. It's all one thing. One body. How we look good and feel good all work together. What was the last book you read or podcast you listened to? Your podcast prepared for this one. Good answer. And I'll be reading 25th anniversary edition of John Maxwell's 21 Irreparable Laws of Leadership. How do you recommend it to everyone to say to this?
Rachael Nemeth 37:51
We will post it in the comments. What is the best fitness class that you've taken in the last six months? Best fitness class. A hit class at the Harrow Method. What are you going back to basics on personally right now?
Julian Barnes 38:13
AI. Specifically, claw code.
Rachael Nemeth 38:19
Sure. If you could give your 25-year-old self one piece of advice, what would it be?
Julian Barnes 38:25
The first answer is not the one you want.
Rachael Nemeth 38:32
I'll take one.
Julian Barnes 38:34
Give your first answer over drinks. Life goes by very fast. 25-year-old mean? That's seemingly long time ago. Feels like yesterday. Life goes by very fast. And last question, Julian.
Rachael Nemeth 38:54
What is a business outside of fitness that really inspires you right now?
Julian Barnes 39:00
That inspires me. I used to say there is curl tip. Interesting. Until I had a subcar experience and I was under resility. And it just goes back to reinforce this entire conversation. The gap between grand and delivery of values is huge. Even at that level where you think they have all their resources, they could figure it out. But this location didn't.
Rachael Nemeth 39:36
I got some extra points out of it. Julian, thank you so much for your time today. This was awesome. Really appreciate you as always and looking forward to the next conversation.
Julian Barnes 39:46
Appreciate the opportunity to bring our credible conversations out into the public. So thanks for the opportunity, Rachael.
Rachael Nemeth 39:54
Yeah, of course.
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